Transcription provided by eCourt Reporters
GENE MUELLER: You get the call from Lloyd Larson at your home in Fox Point. We’ve heard all of the stories about, you know, the white knuckle excitement waiting for that bankruptcy court to make its decision. What do you remember though from the moment you hung up that phone and you went for that walk outside your home and you realized you’re a baseball owner now? And then to that week later, that first pitch, what are some of the things that still stand out in your mind today, 50 years later?
BUD SELIG: Well, it is 50 years later and, you know, all I can remember, I was — I got the call, Lloyd Larson, and one of my lawyers two minutes later, he said, “I got great news for you.” I said, “I already heard.” And he was — he was stunned.
But, you know, Gene, it was — that five-and-a-half year struggle, I just told my students, this was — was really tough. And we were down to the end. I mean, there was no doubt in my mind, if this doesn’t work, we’re — we’re done. There’s no more expansion. They didn’t want to come to Milwaukee. They were going to find other markets. And this was — we were lucky. Seattle couldn’t find a buyer, and it was — the five-and-a-half years was really tough, but — but that night was just — I can still remember I — I was overcome, “Oh, my goodness.” And it was — the odds were so stacked against us, that they were only there because they had to be there. And I knew that, and I understood that.
Now, look, it all worked out great, and once I got in, it’s like none of this ever happened. But what a night, it was the fulfilment of not only a dream but hard to believe the dream had come true.
GENE MUELLER: That’s a good point. There were people in baseball, I think it was former Commissioner Eckert, who said if Milwaukee wants baseball it can go to Chicago for it after the Braves had left. Bowie Kuhn, the commissioner at the time, was one of the lawyers that helped Bill Bartholomay move the Braves to Atlanta. You had people that didn’t —
BUD SELIG: All that’s true.
GENE MUELLER: Yeah, you had people that didn’t want this city to have a second chance.
BUD SELIG: There’s no question about it, for whatever reason. And a lot of people didn’t care. They were mad because the county and state had sued them, and they were angry. And quite a suit and quite a lot of litigation.
So, you know, there’s no doubt I knew that at the time that we were taking a chance. We had no other choice. We had no other choice. And — and that was 1964 — it started — ’65, ’66. It got to the State Supreme Court in ’67 and lost there 4 to 3. And it was — it was a painful period, and — but that’s when all this started. So it had a happy ending, but you never would have believed it.
GENE MUELLER: Yeah, you were paying for the sins of others. I mean, there were a lot of bad, nasty things that were said both ways, but some out of Milwaukee, too, from some politicians at the time about the Braves moving —
BUD SELIG: Of course — right.
GENE MUELLER: And you can almost understand why Major League Baseball was like, “Oh, yeah? Well, to hell with you. You’re not getting a team if that’s your attitude about it.”
BUD SELIG: Well, that’s true. You know, we went to a couple of meetings, and — Bobby and I, and Schlitz was a sponsor of some, so they couldn’t bang him around, but they banged me around — oh, did they ever. And it was — it was painful, no doubt about it.
And then — and then we had all those years where I’d go to meetings and nobody wanted to talk. Few people were very friendly then. Baltimore organization was wonderful. And out of it, Harry Dalton eventually came to work, but they were — they were really friendly, Jerry Hoffberger (then-Orioles owner), Frank Cashen (then-Orioles executive), and Harry Dalton. But I mean, they just — there’s no question they would do everything they can to keep the team out.
Now, once we got it, it was different. We became great friends. And I think in a certain sense there was some people who fought us but knew it was wrong. And so once we got in, I would say this: Not only did the anger disappear, but they couldn’t have been more friendly.
GENE MUELLER: We all know what happened that first game: Brewers lose 12-nothing to the Angels at County Stadium. Do you remember anything at all about game two?
BUD SELIG: I don’t.
GENE MUELLER: Okay.
BUD SELIG: I think — I think we won game two and I think (Steve) Hovley hit a home run, but I really don’t. You know, I was so happy, I’ve often said — I think you know this — game one is the only game I — that I never — I didn’t care if the Brewers won or not. We just — we had a team. We had no chance to win with — we lost 12 to nothing. You know the story, I was walking down the ramp right outside our office and a guy stopped me and said, “You Bud Selig?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Well, you wanted a team in the worst way and that’s what you got.” I said, “Well, it’s only one game, 12-nothing isn’t gonna — nobody’s will remember it,” and so on and so forth. But it was — it was a great piece of history, it really was. It was.
When I think back — and I don’t even remember myself, but when I think back, I am — I wonder if I really — I even understood the odds that were against us. Really against us. Really against us.
GENE MUELLER: That was a bad team you inherited from Seattle. I looked it up. You lost the second game 6 to 1. Then you go to Chicago and take three of four from the White Sox, so you ended that series at 500. That would be the last time you would be at 500 the rest of the season.
BUD SELIG: They were bad. Look, the guy who said to me “you wanted a team in the worst way” wasn’t wrong. It was — no, they were bad. We were — we were an expansion team, and in those days, expansion teams was a painful process for everybody. And so (Ewing) Kaufmann (Royals owner) did a little better and quite a bit better, but we eventually caught up to them, too. But it was — was it a bad team? It was a real bad team, yeah.
GENE MUELLER: Do you ever talk to any of the players from that first game? I know Kenny “Bulldog” Sanders is still in Hales Corners.
BUD SELIG: I see Kenny on occasion. I haven’t seen him now in quite a while. I do. Tough — tough little guy and a really good pitcher.
GENE MUELLER: He was your all-star that season, wasn’t he, relief pitcher?
BUD SELIG: I think that’s right. I think that’s right.
GENE MUELLER: There was some other talent on that team, too, I mean, Mike Hegan would go on to become an early — Brewers hero.
BUD SELIG: You bet, Mike Hegan became a good major league player, no question about it.
GENE MUELLER: Danny Walton was a big fan with the league.
BUD SELIG: Danny — Danny Walton was a star, yeah.
GENE MUELLER: They’re both gone, sadly. Danny and Mike Hegan are the only two guys that I could see from that starting lineup on opening day 1970 that are no longer with us. A lot of other guys are: Lew Krausse, Jerry McNertney, Max Alvis, Tommy Harper, Ted —
BUD SELIG: Tommy — Tommy Harper, by the way, was a good player.
GENE MUELLER: He was excellent. He was —
BUD SELIG: Yeah.
GENE MUELLER: — amazing. I think he made the All-Star, too.
BUD SELIG: He went on to have a good Major League career with the Boston Red Sox, yeah.
GENE MUELLER: Ted Kubiak, Steve Hovley, who was big in those first couple games. He had three of the four hits on opening day.
BUD SELIG: Right. Right. I remember Steve Hovley, yeah.
GENE MUELLER: And then Russ Snyder who had been —
BUD SELIG: But it was — it was baseball returning, you know. Look, the Braves had been great. They never were below 500. They had Henry Aaron, Eddy Matthews, Lew Burdette, Warren Spahn, even though near the end, those guys were gone or old. I think Burdette was gone, Spahn was gone, Matthews went pretty quickly, but it was a — it was tough — it was a tough act to follow. I told those folks I think what I underestimated was the anger towards baseball by the Milwaukee fans. And they were right. They were right to have anger. I was hoping it would disappear, but — it did in about 1977 or ’78, really disappeared with Molitor and Yount and even Aaron before that, but there was — it began to disappear.
GENE MUELLER: Yeah, what were the fans angry about?
BUD SELIG: They — because their team had — taken away from them. They were bitter. And the way it went, the way it was done. They were really angry. I remember making calls in 1965 trying to sell
tickets. There were teams incorporated remember, Gene, and we — it was — I’m telling you, people were nice to me but not too. Some of them hung up, and they were just — said, “How could you do this?” And, “I know you’re trying, but to hell with baseball.” And they were angry, Gene. Angry.
GENE MUELLER: Yet those were the same fans that stayed away when the Braves were having all those winning seasons. And granted, they never got back to the World Series after ’58, but why do you think Milwaukee fans stopped showing up for Braves games?
BUD SELIG: Well, they did the first five or six years, and set all kinds of major league records, as you remember.
GENE MUELLER: Right.
BUD SELIG: The first year they drew a million-826, which was an all-time National League record, and then four-plus years of 2 million. Even in ’64 when we sold tickets, we sold, I think, over 900,000. That was over the National League average. They don’t draw — they didn’t draw then like they do now.
And so, yes, attendance dropped in the 700 range before that, in ’62 and ‘3, but it was not any worse than a lot of other teams. But they were blowing us off, there’s no question about it.
In 1958, they drew a million-and-a-half, if my memory serves me correctly, or maybe it was ’59, and — but I — they still had an amazing 13 years.
And so, I guess I will always think that the Braves leaving was tragically unfair — unfair to Milwaukee, unfair to baseball as it turns
out. You know, I mean, look what the Brewers have done in their 50 years. Think about that.
And so the idea that Milwaukee — the lake to the east, Chicago to the south, Twins to the northwest, that was their argument. They were silly arguments.
Now, was it limited by television revenue? It was then and it is now. But the Braves’ arguments and how they got out — and that was mainly Brave ownership, was their — it was — and we fought it from 1965 on, I’ll tell you, it was tough. Really tough.
GENE MUELLER: That die with the Braves was cast anyway. Bartholomay and that ownership group wanted out of Milwaukee, they wanted what the TV market in Atlanta was — was promising, they were going to leave Milwaukee if the Braves drew 2 million fans here, weren’t they?
BUD SELIG: Well, I don’t know, if they drew 2 million, they couldn’t have, but — but, look, they wanted out. Yes, they did want out. And Bill Bartholomay, who became one of my closest friends as you know, and we buried the hatchet — he used to have a line, Gene, that he used a lot, he said, “You ought to thank me for moving. Without me moving, you don’t own the Brewers; you don’t become commissioner. Look at all the great things that happened.” So that was their logic.
But, look, once we were in baseball, there was no sense fighting about that anymore. That wasn’t going to do us any good.
GENE MUELLER: At the end of that 1970 season, year one is in the books, the final out is made, what did you know then that you didn’t know on opening day that April?
BUD SELIG: That we had a front office that needed a complete restructuring. We had inherited it from Seattle, and I knew then that if we were going to do the things that I wanted them to do, we weren’t going to do it with this group.
GENE MUELLER: So you made the purge in the offseason.
BUD SELIG: Yes.
GENE MUELLER: And it took some time to — took some time for your team to get some traction, but it worked out in the end. By the end of the ’70s, you had a powerhouse.
BUD SELIG: You know, it was really interesting, you know, I’m proud of that. When you think about it — and we had several front office changes. Harry Dalton came in 1977, but in the meantime through some good drafting and good work, Jim Baumer did a good job, Charlie Moore came on, Robin Yount came after the ’73 season.
I remember a story, I came to the spring training late in ’74, midway through it, and Del Crandall, then the manager, and catcher of the Milwaukee Braves, said to me, “Kid’s gonna play shortstop.” And I said, “Well, that’s good. I thought I saw him with Tim Johnson, was a kid that was a pretty good player.”
“No,” he said, “I’m talking about your guy, Yount.” I said, “He’s 18 or 19 years old. Played two months at Newark, New York. How can he play in the big leagues?” Del said, “He’s gonna be a great player some day. He’s gonna struggle early.” And he did. I think he made 50 errors the first year, but he was a hell of a player. And you could see that he was going to be a hell of a player.
And you’re right, in the ’70s, Gene, it went with — you know, by 1978, Harry was here, George Bamberger, maybe my favorite all time baseball personality, and Paul Molitor had been our first round draft choice in ’77, so along with Charley Moore, Gorman Thomas, who had gone around and around, we had gotten Cecil Cooper in a trade — my only trade I ever made. We were in between general managers, I was in a meeting, Dee Fondy was our scouting director, he came up and said, “Boston wants to talk to you.” It was Dick O’Connell, who was a friend of mine. Dick said, “You gotta help me out. The old man wants Scott back,” wanted Boomer Scott. The old man being Tom Yauke. That’s good, we were anxious to get rid of Scott. And I — so I said, “Let me talk to my guy.” He said, “Look, we’ll make a deal right now.” That was Dick. So, okay, good. I went over and finally said, “Cecil Cooper.” I said, “We gotta have — I went back, we have Cooper and you gotta take Carbo.” And Carbo had been there, and so that’s what happened. And so I got Cecil Cooper, and that was it. That was a great trade.
Jim, I’m on the radio.
So then you think of that team, Bambi did a sensational job. Really sensational. Harry was great. Oh, we got Ben Oglivie for Jimmy Straten, and then Jimmy Straten came back to us. And slowly but surely we built it up. It might have been ’78, we won 93 games, and ’79 we won 95 games, we didn’t win either year, but we were good.
’81 was the unfortunate strike. We were the best team in baseball. ’82 we won. Of course, we lost the World Series, and I told Whitey Herzog many times, I’ve seen him at the Hall of Fame, and we joked a little bit about it, but it’s true: If we have Rollie Fingers, we win. And there’s no question in my mind that’s true. And nobody disputes that.
So when you think back to that ’82 team, it turns out we had five Hall of Fame players. Think about that, five. Simmons, Yount, Molitor, Sutton — I’m forgetting somebody.
GENE MUELLER: Fingers.
BUD SELIG: Simmons.
GENE MUELLER: Fingers.
BUD SELIG: Simmons, Sutton, Yount, Molitor, and Fingers. Oh, Shame on me, how did I forget Rollie? Five Hall of Fame players. So we were, Gene, we were really good.
GENE MUELLER: Let’s fast forward to date. What are you doing with your time now with no baseball games to watch?
BUD SELIG: Well, it’s different. I walk, read a lot, work what calls I have, and just try to keep busy. But it’s strange, here we are opening — I couldn’t believe opening day, I was going to throw the first ball out, Bob Uecker and I. And it’s — it’s an adjustment. You know, my father once told me, “Life is nothing but a series of adjustments.” Boy, he turned out to be right, didn’t he?
GENE MUELLER: Amen to that.
BUD SELIG: And so this is — this is tough, but, you know, I want to say this to you about the Brewers: Think of the 50 years and all of the guys that have played for us, Hall of Famers. We’ve had for a short hands team, you know, Cubs and Reds are a 100-and-some years old — 140, and all of the others are at least 100 years old, so we’re the relative newcomer. And I wish we had won more World Series, but we really have a wonderful history, and it’s been — and the one thing, you know, Gene, I thought in those lonely days, five-and-a-half years, trying to get a team, trying to get a team, is if Milwaukee really would support us. Wow, did I turn out to be right. And I knew I was right. And the fans have, they’ve been remarkable. You think of a market this size drawing 2,925,000 people, that’s stunning. Stunning.
GENE MUELLER: There is no template for what baseball is going through right now. Its been through world wars, job actions, strikes, you name it. There’s never been a pandemic that baseball has had to deal with. What’s your advice moving forward? Do you talk to your successor, Rob Manfred, about this?
BUD SELIG: Oh, of course. Of course, I do. Yes, I do, quite often. But, look, there’s nothing you can do. Baseball, you’ve heard me say it over and over, Gene, is a social institution, and it — it’s gonna be and do what it should do. And so we’ll, you know, hopefully at some point in May, June, whenever, we’ll be ready to play and serve the same kind of role we did after 9/11. But I know how difficult this is. This is a terrible time for a lot of people and I just hope people will stay healthy and we’ll get this over, as you said, as soon as we can.
GENE MUELLER: How does baseball balance the realities of what you just alluded to, the fact that people are dying, people are getting sick by the tens of thousands because of this with no vaccine in sight. And then there are the business realities, the revenue pressures and all of that other stuff that goes on with keeping the game afloat? How do you balance those two considerations?
BUD SELIG: Well, you do balance them, but what you find is to say, I said before, you have to do what’s really socially correct, and we just have to be good citizens, and when we’re ready to play we’ll be ready to play.
In the meantime, baseball is doing a lot of wonderful things and so are the Brewers, I might add. I mean, people who’ve worked for them and so on and so forth. So we — all you can do is do as much as you possibly can.
GENE MUELLER: Have you discussed the options — I know some of the baseball columnists have spitballed all kinds of things about what happens once baseball gets the green light to resume, like, maybe — maybe even starting without fans in the stands just to get some games going, maybe relocating some games?
BUD SELIG: Well, they’re gonna have to make adjustments. I hope not, you know, I don’t know what — nobody knows what’s going to happen. Nobody does. There have been a lot of suggestions, some of them are sort of silly in a way, but what I — what I would say to you is that they’ll do what’s in our fans’ best interest and our best interest. If it means
doing that at the start, we’ll do that, but I would hope that once we’d be ready to resume we’re really ready to resume or we shouldn’t resume.
GENE MUELLER: Which ones strike you as silly off the top of the head?
BUD SELIG: Well, I don’t know, you know, I just — I’ve heard a lot of suggestions. I haven’t paid a lot of attention, mainly the idea of playing in an empty stadium, let’s hope that we don’t need to do that. Let’s hope we’re coming back at the right time.
GENE MUELLER: How about canceling the all-star game to make room for more regular season games?
BUD SELIG: Look, that’s something that Rob’s gonna have to work out. I mean, you know, they want to play later and play as much as possible, I’m all for that.
GENE MUELLER: And how about a nontraditional post-season, maybe an expanded tournament or something like that, do you think that should be in play?
BUD SELIG: Gene, I’m going to let them work all that out. They got a million ideas, and I certainly haven’t talked to them about it, but you know, time will tell.
GENE MUELLER: I suppose it’s got to be hard for traditionalists in baseball who want to see 162 games, a World Series with playoffs, and all of the usual trappings, and then again, the cold hard realities of trying to deliver a product that’s gonna put fans back in the seats, entertain them and give them a season that’s worth their — their while, their ticket price.
BUD SELIG: Well, I said before, life is nothing but a series of adjustments, and that’s what our guys will have to do. And so will everything else, not only baseball, everything else.
GENE MUELLER: Remember when our biggest problem was the Houston Astros’ sign stealing scandal?
BUD SELIG: Yeah, well, it was then, but it isn’t now. Although, we’ll see how that works out, but, you know, I mean, this is just stunning. But I have great faith that we’ll be able to not only resume but we’ll make all of the adjustments that we have to make.
GENE MUELLER: Commissioner —
BUD SELIG: And that’s what makes it a great — that’s what makes it a great social institution.
GENE MUELLER: Commissioner, our time is almost up, 50 years of Brewers baseball, what would you like to say to the fans in Milwaukee, especially the old — the old geezers like me remember that first game 50 years ago on that April day when you got waxed by the Angels 12/nothing?
BUD SELIG: Well, I know you do, and you know, that’s what I appreciate. I said it before, the loyalty of our fans has been remarkable. You know, and I thank them, and I thank them again. They’ll never know how much I appreciate they’re unswerving loyalty and how great they’ve been through thick and thin. Sure, we’re gonna draw a lot more when we win, and that’s part of life, but in the 50 years, you know, we didn’t have to prove we were a major league city, but you look at that attendance and you can compare it to Atlanta or anybody else, it is amazing. It is absolutely amazing. And so I know everybody is going to celebrate this, not like we would normally, but we’re celebrating it because our fans came out. And so I have enduring gratitude, and my — all I can say is thank you for everything.
But I knew those five-and-a-half years that we didn’t get a team and people were saying a lot of nasty things about Milwaukee and too small and they don’t go to games and they don’t do this and that, well, here we are 50 years later and we’re one of the great franchises that just drew almost 3 million people. That says all you gotta know about our fans. And they’ve been incredible.